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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:41 am  Post subject: Occupy Wall Street  
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something should change, but will anything ever come out of this? The movement seems as vague as this post

Anybody gone to anything?
What are your feelings about all of this?
any predictions?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:53 am  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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i understand their frustration but i dont know if wearing a guy fox mask and sitting in a drum circle is going to change any corporate laws~

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:14 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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i walked through a crowd of them when i was in Seattle. but yeah, i tend to stay out of politics or economic dealings, mainly just because i'm not very interested most of the time. but as a result, i'm very uninformed.

so what are they trying to change?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:13 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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It's the first time in a looong time that a significant number of Americunts get off their lazy asses to try to "do something"... If you ask me, and I sure hope I'm right, it's the last attempt at a peaceful initiative before violence becomes inevitable.

It's amazing that so many congresscritters and media people can still walk around without bodyguards. Hopefully that will begin to change soon.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:39 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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yeah, violence is always the answer.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:58 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." -- John F. Kennedy

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:11 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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inevitability and hope are two different things. i don't think JFK would have ever hoped for violent conflict resolution.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:39 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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RE Virus wrote:
Americunts


is that really necessary?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:02 am  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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RE's just sad. it's ok RE, it will be ok.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:05 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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RE Virus wrote:
It's the first time in a looong time that a significant number of Americunts get off their lazy asses to try to "do something"... If you ask me, and I sure hope I'm right, it's the last attempt at a peaceful initiative before violence becomes inevitable.

It's amazing that so many congresscritters and media people can still walk around without bodyguards. Hopefully that will begin to change soon.


YUP. Thank you!

Titan wrote:
RE Virus wrote:
Americunts


is that really necessary?


Americans are by and far the laziest, selfish group of citizens ever. We never fight for what we believe in. We never get shit done. We go on youtube and make a vblog about how it really annoys us. That's usually the extent we'll take it to.

This is what people fighting for change and what they believe in looks like:

Image

This is not:

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:25 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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sooo..if we start mass violence in the streets then we wont get labeled americunts?

i just dont see the need to throw terms around like that. it seems to discredit anything you have to say. You would be doing your argument a favor if you just omitted that kind of stuff~

anyways...although i dont agree with everything the occupy people are doing i do respect the fact that its a non violent protest. Rioting in the streets is imho not the answer~

also, SOME americans are lazy but a lot of us work our asses off everyday, unfortunately some people apparently dont realize that~

also the occupy people are far from a significant number of people. In Seattle its like 60 people and nationwide its in the low thousands and you have to admit that alot of these people are simply there because there was no phish show to go to and dont seem to have any clear message what so ever~

why do i get the feeling that you guys want there to be blood running in the streets?

explain to me what it is that the occupy people want? whats their message? they cant seem to clarify it for anyone but since you guys seem to be experts on the matter maybe you can enlighten me~

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:32 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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RE and alp just have a pessimistic view of the world. and their views and opinions seem hypocritical (as far as i know), because as far as i can tell they're lazy americans as well. Americunts is a good way to describe exactly what is going on here, which is alp and RE perpetuating the view that the world has of Americans: a bunch of white, pig-headed, ungrateful people who believe they're always right and don't listen to anyone else while simultaneously complaining about the world around them, which some people would kill (and do kill) to have, oh and promote violence and guns and alcohol and all that good stuff.

so, to each their own, but it is however depressing and kind of annoying. i would hope that the occupy wall street doesn't go violent, as i would sincerely hope that this group of people and humanity as a whole have come to a point in our evolution where we've figured out that violence, death, and destruction is a primitive way of handling social issues.

(good thing these groups aren't lead by people like... well, you know).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:46 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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“But to tear down a factory or to revolt against a government or to avoid repair of a motorcycle because it is a system is to attack effects rather than causes; and as long as the attack is upon effects only, no change is possible. The true system, the real system, is our present construction of systematic thought itself, rationality itself, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the succeeding government. There’s so much talk about the system. And so little understanding.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and The Art of Motor Cycle Maintenance

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:20 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Hi doyle:

I agree with Robert M. Pirsig's logic, which states that the only true way to bring about a revolution is to alter people's mindset about a tyrannical government. In simplest terms, if Tyrants B overthrow Tyrants A, the new government will still be the tyrannical. The only difference is that despotism will have a new face. Nevertheless, if Rights-Activists overthrow Tyrants, the old system of government will be uprooted, and new leadership will grow in its place. (Note: I am using the term "tyrants" to connote ruthless leaders with little regard for human lives, rather than the classical definition, which simply refers to a leader elected to do a specific job.) What complicates the aforementioned matter to an even greater extent is whether Tyrants B are true to their cause, or if they are donning a veil which masks intentions that are diametrically opposed to the ones which they parade in public. If Tyrants B are actually Right-Activists, and depose of Tyants A, then their government will be a benevolent one. Likewise, if the Rights-Activists are actually similar to Tyrants B, and usurp power from Tyrants A, then their reign will feature the continuation of tyranny.

I have an additional thought for you. If the protestors on Wall Street were practicing what Henry David Thoreau and Dr. Martin Luther called civil disobedience in an attempt to bring about change, then I would have no qualm with their actions. The problem is that the protestors are creating an unsanitary atmosphere by urinating and defecating in public. People from all socioeconomic backgrounds walk through Wall Street, too. If one of these individuals comes in contact with urine and feces, they may become sick, and possibly die. In sum, I have respect for the protestors on Wall Street for fighting what they consider corporate greed. I have absolutely no sympathy, though, for their disregard of how using Wall Street as a public restroom may lead to other persons' future illnesses.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:08 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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alpmaster wrote:
RE Virus wrote:
It's the first time in a looong time that a significant number of Americunts get off their lazy asses to try to "do something"... If you ask me, and I sure hope I'm right, it's the last attempt at a peaceful initiative before violence becomes inevitable.

It's amazing that so many congresscritters and media people can still walk around without bodyguards. Hopefully that will begin to change soon.


YUP. Thank you!

Titan wrote:
RE Virus wrote:
Americunts


is that really necessary?


Americans are by and far the laziest, selfish group of citizens ever. We never fight for what we believe in. We never get shit done. We go on youtube and make a vblog about how it really annoys us. That's usually the extent we'll take it to.

This is what people fighting for change and what they believe in looks like:

Image

This is not:

Image


I think you meant Muslims, not Americans.

I've been at Occwall since September 20th on and off and also at Occupy San Francisco for a week. You meet so many amazing and inspirational people from all walks of life. It's meant to be a peaceful protest, dear. Not a riot like those supposedly sophisticated Londoners started, which was just a clusterfuck of looting and pillaging for no reason.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:09 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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I'm kind of like Tunes. I hate politics; it's way too frustration. People say too many different things, everyone has their "opinion," it's almost like there is no real truth in it.
Everyone gets too mad to think clear, and people make up facts. It's annoying how viscous we become about such things. There are much better things--although I will admit it is important.

From what I've learned so far, and I could be very wrong--I'm willing to acknowledge this-- is that the Tea Party has at one point been more unruly than it is now. It's funded, but it wants people to take on responsibility for themselves and less under governmental control. The Occupy Wall Street protestors seem to desire more from the government without the responsibility. Their protests seem to be a lot more like some weird orgy; honestly, this makes me dislike them. (Though I try not to be biased, because of my lack of knowledge.)
It seems Occupy Wall Street isn't as aligned or sure on what they are demanding, but they get more media coverage and poop on cars. Lol
Tea Party though has been also known to get angry, so I'm not sure how civilized they "actually are" yet they appear to be so despite focus on them.
I dunno...

I just hope people are protesting because they want to keep the wealthy from taking over, not because they think they deserve X amount of money or resources. Dave Ramsey, who is a big financial advisor guy, ripped apart a OWS guy on his radio show for labeling Dave as one of the top wealthy who benefits when really he makes more but has to give half of it back to taxes.
A lot of our people don't work, but many do and suffer because of those who try to live off the government. People who really need it, like my friend with PTSD from being in the armed forces, and want to work can't.
(Not meaning to spawn another discussion with my soapbox! Please don't say something stupid or hateful in your "use of free speech" [or loose speech] because I'll probably just not care and ignore you. :lol

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:31 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Hi All:

It seems as if the OccWall and OccChicago protestors put on a great public display of daily griping, but do nothing--save for complaining--to alter the conditions which they are in. If these people really wanted to create flux, they would attack the sources of the problems, rather than side-effects caused by them. Ladies and gentleman in OccWall and OccChicago, many persons who read the newspapers or watch the news on TV understand your grievances. My question to you is the following: how are you going to solve your problems? Are you going to continuously complain about the conditions which you are in while you are doing nothing at all to alter them? Or do you have the patience and maturity to confront the sources of the difficulties in a peaceful and socially acceptable manner? Only time can answer which of the previous two paths the Occ-protestors will take.

Take care, everyone.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:01 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Grievances can be made without there being any clear solution in the horizon. It's kind of like what that man in Network says... "I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad." A terrible analogy would be to say that cancer patients shouldn't be allowed to have their grievances heard because there is no cure for cancer. Well... bad analogy aside... There is some intuitive truth to be gained from it.

Expression doesn't need to have immediate answers. If the people have valid concerns, yes, a solution should be at least in the horizon... however, not having solutions readily available doesn't make these grievances any less valid. Should these people retreat back to their shitty lives and accept the states of affairs because they personally don't know how to change it? The dialogue needs to happen... and it is happening...

My statement above isn't to say that we shouldn't be protesting. It's to say that, once we see that there are legitimate concerns caused by our own entirely mind made political economy, there should be some corresponding intellectual answer to it. Protest is the start, but it's not the end in itself. If nobody spoke out, how would we (economists, academics, politicians, etc., even business people) know what to fix?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:54 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Hi Doyle:

I agree with your argument up to a certain point. The laws of logic clearly dictate that one should bring a social wrong to the public's attention prior to deciding upon possible cures for the communal evil. The aforementioned step often comes in the form of protests. However, while I concur with your ideal supporting the Occ-demonstrations, some individuals forget that many of the Occ-proponents are staunch Barrack Obama supporters. In other words, the same protestors who stood mute while Obama bailed out avaracious corporations currently back Obama's new attitude towards greedy businesses--that such corporate entities deserve the public's ire. If the Occ-demonstrators really wanted to decry the unscrupulous fiscal habits of companies, the time to voice their opinions was when Obama held pro-business convictions, not when he suddenly uttered statements against coporations with seedy money management practices so that he can get reelected. Don't get me wrong, Doyle--I don't think the demonstrators are wrong for protesting. I just get the feeling the certain protestors are guiled into believing the recession in the United States is the fault of corporate greed when, in actuality, Obama's mismanagement of taxpayer dollars actually is largely to blame for that particular problem.

As an aside, I voted for Obama. However, I judge every president on his (or her) performance, and I am not going to blame the United States' current economic woes wholly on corporate greed.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:44 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Everyone: For all of us, please, educate yourself before trying to form an opinion. It takes just the slightest bit of intellectual maturity to do it. Don't worry, your silly little ego can handle it if you find that you need to go against your first impression, once you find out all the facts. The world is a complex and confusing place. There is no honor to be found in sticking to your guns, when you don't even know what they mean. Ignorance is curable, stupid isn't.

Also: Get rid of the political theater mentality. Don't get trapped in a dualistic paradigm of opposing ideologies. Don't get caught up in personality games. Do you seriously think any of this has anything to do with Barack Obama? The man has no power. If that is not obvious to you, then you are in a profound state of cognitive dissonance. The real controllers of this country use the left/right battle and the political reality show to keep us distracted and divided. What's frustrating is that while most at the occupations understand this in theory, they still fall for it in reality.

The reason the Occupy movement exists in the way that it does is that everyone there feels they have no other option. The media does not give us a voice, nor does the government (or the ballot box). The only way we have left to amplify our voices is the people's microphone.

The system itself is the problem. It is not simply corporations, or the government, or the rich - those are the inevitable products of a corrupt, psychopathic system. It has no regard for the quality of anyone's life. The only thing that matters to the system, as it exists today, is the flow of money. It's not about classism. Rich people are miserable, too. No one is happy with the way things are going in this country (or they're simply not paying attention).

Coming from this point of view, do you have a bright idea of a solution? Do you care enough to do anything about our situation? Have you ever tried? Once you do, you will find out how difficult it is to organize people in a meaningful way, where everyone gets a chance to speak. And to do it on your own terms, where you aren't told what you are by a news reporter with a camera (trust me, it's one of the hardest things you could ever try to do).

This movement is bigger than delivering a bumper sticker message with a canned solution to a manufactured problem. If that is what you want, well, we have plenty of that already. You should be able to find something to your liking. This is not that. This is about reforming our democracy, and people finding their voices again. It has been a long time since we have done that in this country... Forgive us for sounding hoarse in the morning.

If we could stop arguing, and massaging our precious egos, this could be a very swift and powerful movement for peace and human emancipation. However, after getting my hands dirty with this, I know that most are not ready for the responsibility that comes with that. Most still want to fight. It's going to be a long struggle.

Just, for God's sake, educate yourself. Do that first. Do that before you even try to form a real opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:17 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Hi Lord Elevation:

One of my problems with the Occ-Wall movement is not with the intended purpose of the demonstrations, but, rather, with the timing of these protests. Now, you raised an important query: why mention Barrack Obama's name instead of basing my analyses solely on my support for or reasons against the protest? The reason I use Obama's name is because, during the time when he was bailing out unscrupulous businesses, no one was protestesting Obama's actions. However, when the Occ-Wall events began, Obama, who hitherto supported corporate greed, suddenly spoke publicly in favor of the Occ-Wall demonstrations. I also could not help but notice that his pro-Occ-Wall demeanor started to surface in 2011, one year before 2012, the year in which Americans must vote for a president. The only logical conclusion I can draw from Obama's sudden shift from a pro-corporation attitude to an anti-business mindset is that Obama wants election votes. It seems that Obama proponents find the Occ-Wall protests as a perfect vehicle to increase Obama's approval ratings. In sum, many factors configure into why people attend Occ-Wall rallies, and Obama's attempt to use the Occ-Wall events for his own selfish ends is just one of them. Yet, this variable is an important one, and ought not to be discounted by the American public.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:09 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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Occupy London (Ontario) was shut down today...

Lord Elevation wrote:
If we could stop arguing, and massaging our precious egos, this could be a very swift and powerful movement for peace and human emancipation.


I'm not convinced there is such thing as an apolemic peace or emancipation of this kind. Nothing is outside of politics. What do you have in mind?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:02 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: United States
Hi All:

Now that I had a chance to think about it, I consider the phrase "Occupy Wall Street" movement a gross misuse of terms. This is because many people, at one point or another, have occupied Wall Street. Are the protesters, then, really occupying Wall Street? Yes. However, there are other persons who have occupied Wall Street on a daily basis without actually considering that they are doing so. Remember, the people occupying Wall Street also include the individuals who must walk down Wall Street to arrive at the businesses at which they work. Consequently, Wall Street workers have occupied it long before protestors have claimed to "Occupy Wall Street." One must also remember that many of the Wall Street dissidents are doing more than occupying Wall Street--they are sleeping in tents in the Wall Street area. So, please, let's not label the protests as "Occupy Wall Street" anymore. Let's call the demonstrations "Camping in Wall Street," or "Squatting in Wall Street," instead.

One more thing: if people are allowed to camp out in tents in Wall Street, San Francisco, or any other place that this mislabeled "Occ-Movement" has reached, then why not let the homeless camp out in tents? It is at this particular juncture that the radicals prove themselves to be hypocritical. In many of the areas inhabited by protestors, city officials, according to one news source, are concerned about homeless individuals moving into the tents, and crime rising as a result. Nevertheless, some homeless individuals commit crimes, such as theft, because that is the only way that they can survive. (Some homeless persons don't have enough money to procure items, such as tents, which can safeguard them from the cold weather, so they steal these items, are sometimes caught, and, as a result, are unjustly labeled by society as criminals.) Hence, if some of the affluent dissidents of the capitalistic system operating in the United States today wanted to prove themselves as worthy of their cause, they would step inside their mothers' and fathers' BMWs, and go back home, leaving behind camping equipment that homeless persons could use. Then, perhaps, we won't have to hear as many tragic stories as last year about homeless people dying of hypothermia because they have nothing to shield them from the cold during the winter.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:04 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
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...Really?

You're miles off, QuotidianPerfection. I don't even know what to say to you. You realize that some of the people that have been active in these things are homeless, right? And that they have been teaming up with groups like food not bombs to feed anyone and everyone who needs it? Most of the participants are not affluent young people driving their parents' BMWs. That is a caricature created by critics of the protest. Most people there have been shat on by the system in one way or another.

A big reason these movements keep failing or getting sidetracked (aside from fascist aggression) is that people get obsessed with the marketing/spin/image side of it (like you, QP, with your worries over what it is called), and they miss the whole point of protesting, which is:

1) We're not gonna take it anymore
2) Stop business as usual, because
3) We're not gonna fucking take it anymore

Obama signed the 2011 NDAA into law today. American citizens can now be targeted as terrorist suspects that can be jailed without charge, representation, or trial. Have you had enough yet?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:14 pm  Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: United States
Hi Lord Elevation:

I've had enough of Barrack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and other gubernatorial personalities who make promises, such as informing everyone that they will pass bills to improve the economy, and then "fail to deliver" on their guarantees.

As far as I'm concerned, the Wall Street, Seattle, San Franciso, and Atlanta protests have lost sight of the people who deserve the most attention: the homeless. Instead, "special interests groups," such as feminists, gay activists, animal rights supporters, and other organizations are using such events to further their own political agendas. I would have no problem with that if every organization made assisting the destitute a priority. Nevertheless, in every "Occupy" Protest, political organizations are paying minimal attention to the plight of the homeless, and, instead, using these demonstrations as a "platform" to air their own philosophical perspectivities.

Take care, and Happy New Year!


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