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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:48 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
Rank: Master
Location: United States
Hi Lord Elevation:

According to the Oxford American Dictionary (1980), if one is to "know" something, then he or she must "experience" it. If, on the other hand, one believes what he or she experienced is "fact," then one must prove that what he or she knows "to be true."

Here are definitions of the term "know" and the etymon "fact" drawn from the Oxford American Dictionary (1980).

"Know" (Verb): "To have in one's mind or memory as a result of experience or learning or information" (Def. 1).

"Fact" (Noun): "Something known to have happened or to be true or to exist" (Def. 1).

The definitions and parts of speech for the words "know" and "fact" differ. Thus, I conclude that the two terms are not interchangable.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:53 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm
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Your idea of fact is an idea that is inconsistent with the reality you experience.

"All the true things must change and only that which changes remains true." - Jung, Mysterium Coniuntionis


There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:01 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
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QuoatidianPerfection and Doyle, trust me guys, you HAVE to go on an acid trip if you have not already. You will come out with answers to 99% of the questions/philosophies you've imagined.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:58 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
Rank: Master
Location: United States
Hi alpmaster:

I'll have to decline your offer. But thank you, anyway, for your generosity. Take care.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:27 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:48 am
Rank: Superstar
Location: Kepone Factory UK
PSN: sparkness08
QuotidianPerfection wrote:
Hi alpmaster:

I'll have to decline your offer. But thank you, anyway, for your generosity. Take care.


QP:

I can completely see why Alpmaster suggested trying acid although I don't advocate suggesting the use of drugs to anyone, but from my experience (and I'm sure I can speak on behalf of Alpmasters) I found it mentaly liberating to a degree that I couldn't have found possible without trying it.

The most liberating experience of my life was temporarily losing my ego, taking that experience (bear in mind I haven't done any since the 1990's) and using it after that to take a sideways glance at questions that I would have previously found difficult to come to terms with. I appreciate your stance on drugs and moderation of red wine, however, the framework in which you may come to ask questions about yourself is severely limited without the ability to lose the ego. I have no agenda, just experience.

Some people may be worried about what the may find (and indeed fear the possibility of mental illness) so wouldn't chance it. I argue that mental illness doesn't actualy exist, but that's another arguement in itself.

People who are (for want of a better word) 'pro-acid agenda' often come across in the same way as 'the religious', almost smug to people who haven't had their experiences. They would call it knowledge, I'd call it data, and I'd make of it what I could.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:00 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: United States
Hi sparks:

I'm not a drug user, but I would agree that people who go on acid trips ascertain a type of knowledge that non-drug users do not. This is because 1) knowledge is intertwined with experience, 2) and non-drug users cannot experience the same "things" as drug users.

Nevertheless, neither a non-drug's user's experience nor a drug user's experience can ever amount to fact. The experience of both persons described herein can only be termed factual if their experiences can be validated as verities.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:45 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:48 am
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Location: Kepone Factory UK
PSN: sparkness08
QuotidianPerfection wrote:
Nevertheless, neither a non-drug's user's experience nor a drug user's experience can ever amount to fact. The experience of both persons described herein can only be termed factual if their experiences can be validated as verities.


And as we make our own 'truths'..... therein lies the rub.

Just as a point of question, how do you feel (as someone who's never used drugs) about not being able to experience the opportunity to see the other side of the coin?

When I was younger, I was compelled (I compelled myself to be honest) to gain the experience, not for recreational purposes, but to get another possible/different angle on what I'd call 'normality'. I've not done any for 20 years now and have no further desire to. Mission accomplished as they say. I do feel personaly rewarded for the experience though, others I know from back then didn't.

As Mulder once said 'the truth is out there' ....

But it's probably not anyone elses other than Mulders. ;)

_________________
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:07 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
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Listen to Sparks.

I am not a drug user as well, very rarely will smoke pot (once a every 2-3 months) and listen to some music. Otherwise that's it, no drinking, or any other drugs. Only did acid twice, and honestly the second time was completely pointless.

The first time however, this one single time, your life will change. Also listen to sparks, as I have treated it the same always. Not out of a need to feel high, but to get a different perspective that you are not allowed to have in your current state. You can grab your little telescope your looking out of and add a completely different lense, and look 180 degrees the other way. You will find many, many, many, answers to things you question and that are impossible to see otherwise.

LSD is not damaging at all, and extremely not addicting as well. Like I said, I didn't it once and followed up a few months later to try and re-create the experience to no avail, this was over 3 years ago and never felt the need to again.

But I won't stray the topic off course, just offering a different solution/method to achieving some answers or rationalities to things.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:33 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
Rank: Master
Location: United States
Hi sparks and alpmaster:

As an individual who has never tried drugs, I have no right to claim that the experience (i.e., knowledge) of people who experiment with drugs is inauthentic. By the same token, individuals who try drugs would have no right to claim that persons who do not experiment with drugs experience (i.e., know) "things" which are not real. What we experience (i.e., know) flutuates continuously. This implies that people can know some things with certainty.

However, facts cannot be established beyond a reasonable doubt. At one point in history, for instance, people thought that the Earth was flat. After years of study, though, scientists have suggested the Earth is round. (Notice that I am refraining from using the word "know," as that would imply that the term "know" and "fact" are interchangable. They are not, and I have drew a distinction between the two etymons in previous posts.)

Personally speaking, I might be missing certain experiences by declining to experiment with drugs, but I feel that it is to risky of a gamble to take. Perhaps something wonderful will happen to me on a drug trip. Then, again, maybe I will experience nothing that I cannot ordinarily sense while not using drugs. My greatest fear, though, is that I might have a horrendous experience while on a drug vacation.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:47 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:14 am
Rank: Master
Location: Canada
alpmaster wrote:
QuoatidianPerfection and Doyle, trust me guys, you HAVE to go on an acid trip if you have not already. You will come out with answers to 99% of the questions/philosophies you've imagined.


They aren't actual questions I have, as much as me showing the limitation language and philosophy has. It's not anything that keeps me up at night.

_________________
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:51 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
Rank: Master
Location: United States
Hi doyle:

All language is arbitrary. Why do we say, for instance, that something is "right" instead of "wrong," and "wrong" instead of "right?" We cannot explain why the circumstance highlighted above is the case. The previous mentioned illustration exhibits words agreed upon by societies to have certain meanings. This is why, from a linguistics standpoint, the terms "knowledge" and "fact" do not mean the same thing. People become confused over these two etymons because "knowledge" deals with experience, and "fact" pertains to whether such experience can constitute a verity. In this manner, both the former and latter words are interrelated. However, there are differences, and math, in my opinion, does the best job of drawing distinctions between approximations and congruencies. The approximate value for the square root of two, for instance, is 1.41421356. However, if I square the preceeding value on a calculator, I get 1.9999999932878736 for an answer. If I subtract this number from two, this gives me a difference .0000000067121264. If I want the perfect square root of two, though, I simply put the integer two under the square root sign. If I want to square the aforementioned value, I do the opposite, and remove the square root sign. All components of the argument above suggest that while we can know things conclusively, we cannot necessarily estabilish them as fact.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:17 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm
Rank: Master
So we've established that language is arbitrary. And we've established that knowledge and fact are two different ideas. However, facts are a function of knowledge. Knowledge is the necessary groundwork for facts to be understood.

So when you try to separate the two, and base your facts on other facts, well, naturally, you'll never have a foundation.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:13 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
Rank: Master
Location: United States
Hi Lord Elevation:

If you look at the terms "knowledge" (i.e., experience) and "facts" (truth) from a causal perspective, "knowledge" can exist without the presence of "facts." This is because "facts" effectuate from the attempt to prove "knowledge," and not "knowledge" itself. If you argued that "truth" cannot be established without the presence of "knowledge," I would agree with your postulations. One has to test an experience to prove it valid or invalid. This, as I suggested in earlier posts, is an impossibility. However, if one posits that "knowledge" can be present without the existence of "facts," I would be inclined to agree with that person for the reason stated above.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:13 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
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QuotidianPerfection wrote:
My greatest fear, though, is that I might have a horrendous experience while on a drug vacation.

That's the least probable outcome. There are also the options that you will find it mildly upsetting or downright uninteresting.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:42 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: United States
Hi crispncrunchy:

I agree with you.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:57 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm
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crispncrunchy wrote:
QuotidianPerfection wrote:
My greatest fear, though, is that I might have a horrendous experience while on a vacation.

That's the least probable outcome. There are also the options that you will find it mildly upsetting or downright uninteresting.


Fixed.

Also, QuotidianPerfection, be mindful not to confuse the "fact" of knowledge with knowledge itself. Indeed, you are so grossly missing the point, that I do not know how to respond further... I advise you to look inside yourself for that which is true. Books are fantastic and clever and allow us to communicate all sorts of wonderful ideas, but it is like having a piano and only being able to play the notes on the page when all you have at your disposal is literate rationality. There is so much more than just the notes...

Think laterally...think inside-out, upside-down... better yet, stop thinking altogether, and allow yourself to see and to feel. You'll know it when you see it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:49 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
Rank: Master
Location: United States
Hi Lord Elevation:

Your post implies that, at any moment, a person can experience an event on both a literal and a figurative level. I would like to add that, although an observer can acquire rote and metaphorical knowledge about a situation, the reality of the occurence (e.g., what actually transpired) can be distorted as the observer processes information. Hence, I stand by my argument that "knowledge" and "fact" are different etymological terms.

Nevertheless, you are quite right about one thing: people can know how they feel, and the validity of such emotions are impossible to test scientifically.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:49 am  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm
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Be careful in your assumption that the reality of the occurrence is what actually transpired. Everything is much more interesting than that. All our ways of understanding it, our science and math and logic, our art and myth and language, is all metaphor. They all dance around the same point in their own pattern.

You seem to be trapped in a Cartesian theater. Do you ever meditate?

(Also, can we please move beyond the idea that this is a debate on whether knowledge and fact are different? Let us have a conversation.)


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:05 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Hi Lord Elevation:

If you delight in experiencing literature at different levels, I recommend reading the first chapter of Dante's Convivio (Vol. 2). (See citation below.)

Dante. Convivio. Vol. 2. Trans. Richard Lansing. 2 vols. Web. 13 Jan. 2010 N. pag. <http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/books/convivi/convivio2.html>.

Follow the link below to read the first chapter of the Dantean book discussed above: http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/books/convivi/convivio2.html


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:15 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm
Rank: Master
And I recommend going outside, and breathing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:13 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Hi Lord Elevation:

If you are interested in how I come to conclusions about ideas, I will be more than happy to share that information with you.

Whenever I think about a problem, I imagine all the possiblities which can exist, even those which are absurd. As I concentrate, I begin to understand which pieces do not fit in a particular philosophical puzzle. My next step is to compare my beliefs to others, and see where we intersect, where we differ, and at what junctures my delineations might be logical or illogical. The final part of the analysis tests whether the conclusions which I arrived at are germane to social concerns. For example, I cannot say that "Osama bin Laden was killed because I wished it to be so." That would showcase irrational thinking on my part because I am failing to substantiate my proclamation with any proof. If I claimed, though, that "Osama bin Laden was killed because Middle Eastern Muslims who were afraid of him gave the United States tips on his whereabouts--and not just because Gitmo prisoners were forced to give information about Osama bin Laden's whereabouts," my statement, while argumentative, is logical. Here, I am implying that Osama bin Laden's death is not solely the consequence of coerced confessions which United States intelligence gathered from Gitmo prisoners, but also the result of Middle Eastern Muslims who told Americans where Osama bin Laden was situated. (Note: While I find the tortures that transpired inside Gitmo reprehensible, I take pride in being an American.)

I hope that the illustration above helps you comprehend how I delineate.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:17 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:21 pm
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Thanks, but I know how reasoning works.

What interests me is experience.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:35 pm  Post subject: Re: Skepticism and the impossibility of Knowledge  
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:05 pm
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Location: United States
Hi Lord Elevation:

Experience is difficult to explain, but can be better grasped if we look how it is gathered. There are five senses: touch, taste, smell, sight, and hearing. However, when they are processed in the brain, the senses can elide. In science, this phenomenon is called "sensory integration," and, in literature, this is called synesthesia (i.e., the mixing of the senses.)

This is why some people, when tasting an unknown delicacy for the first time with their eyes closed, can consider the morsel absolutely succulent. However, when told try a bite when they open their eyes, the food looks disgusting, and begins to taste unpleasant. This is sensory integration, or synesthesia, at work.

Since all human beings gather this sort of information (i.e., experience) in the same manner, one cannot say that people can be skeptical about an experience. Once we start questioning whether an experience really happened, we confuse it for fact, which is another phenomenon altogether.

I am interested, though, on your take on sensory integration, or, if you prefer, synesthesia.


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